Vote Tuesday November 7

Sorry I have been a little behind on posting Sunday's discussions. I will be updating soon. This last Sunday we prayed over the Sojourner's voter's guide which you can find here. Please prayerfully research each candidate and proposition before voting. See you at the polls!

Are Evangelicals Handling the Gay Issue all Wrong?

Throughout this chapter there were pretty interesting ideas, statements, and stories. I will go through and provide highlights.

Tony and his wife Peggy disagree on this issue

• Peggy believes that the church should legitimize gay marriages to enhance the persons' humanity
• Tony believes that same gender eroticism cannot be reconciled with scripture
• Tony and his wife do not divorce over the issue and he feels neither should the church

Make sure and read the story about Roger, it's heartbreaking

Tony on Orientation vs. Behavior

• Orientation- who you fantasize about and who you are attracted to
• Behavior - what you do about it
• The "homosexual lifestyle" is an overgeneralization in that homosexuals have different lives and have no one lifestyle
• There are folks who are Christians who are homosexual by orientation but remain celibate
• "...There is not enough evidence to support any theory conclusively."
• "There is one thing of which I am convinced, and that is that homosexuals do not choose their orientation"
• Can Orientation be Changed? - Possible but Unlikely

Did God Make People Gay?

• There are churches in existence that would answer in the "affirmative and would say that people who are gay should celebrate their God given gift
• "Every denomination has an association of such churches, well as a significant minority of churches that do not take an official stand on the issue but quietly welcome gay and lesbian singles and couples into safe places where they can be sure that they will not hear anything hurtful from the pulpit."
• Lewis Smedes, former professor of theology and ethics at Fuller Theological seminary, believed that although homosexuality was not Gods' intention, that it is possible to have a "committed, lifelong, monogamous relationship between homosexuals" and that it "may be what he would call the 'circumstantial will of God' "
• He describes as the ultimate will if God to be parents who raise children"in the nurture and admonition of the Lord."
• Smedes also argues that homosexuals can live the "ultimate will of God" by having "binding relationships that deliver them from loneliness and enhance the humanity and spirituality of the partners."

What About Scripture - Many evangelicals would "cite various passages from the Bible that prevent them from accepting gay and lesbian marriages. It is important for us to survey those survey those verses and see how pro-gay Christian activists handle them, even if there is objection to their interpretations." Check it out because it would be hard for me to condense and also so that we can engage in the homosexual discussion. Tony end this section by saying "It is painful for me that heterosexuals seem unable to comprehend their[homosexuals] estrangement and loneliness. Yet I believe that there are some solutions to this dilemma of evangelical homosexuals."

The Church Needs to Repent and Starved for Spiritual Connection

Does the church need to repent? How? What do you think Christians can do to bridge the gap between the evangelical church and homosexuals? What options that can be offered? Are the options in the book feasible? Do you have homosexual friends? What if you found out one of your friends is gay, what would you/could you share with them? To hear Tony's story from this section click below. The audio is an exert from one of his sermons entitled "Compassion for all Creation" and can be found in its entirety at: http://www.tonycampolo.org/media.php

Note from D Lopez or Danny L

We are going to be finishing the book late November or early December. From there we will finish out the year with an activity, some informal discussions, and then we'll be ready for the coming year. There are still plenty of opportunities for all you to chime in. The postings from myself will be shorter and be done in bullet form, that way it isn't a pain to read. Lastly, Campolo writes from or presents view points from a more "leftist/liberal"* social/political/theological point of view. It may be easy to go on the defensive but I would challenge you guys to pay attention to all of the information being presented. There is a lot that can be gleaned from this book, especially the section on homosexuality. Campolo can be more liberal/conservative than you may think.

*Sometimes I wonder about things that are considered "liberal" by some evangelicals, i.e. the environment, pacifism, social programs, etc if they are liberal or overlooked.

Is Evangelicalism Sexist?

After two weeks we finished this chapter. Last week it was myself and two of you and this last Sunday we had a few more of you show up. We divvied up the chapter five ways and we each report on a section of the chapter. I enjoyed hearing from everyone and their contributions to each section. Like the chapters to come, Campolo isn't shy about what he believes. Although not all of us agreed with all of what Campolo was talking about I feel that these are important things that evangelicals should be talking about.

Women as preachers
Campolo starts these sections off by explaining , at a gathering of Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, how he declared the prevention of women from being ordained as an evil practice. He was told that these were heated words and there could have been a better way to express his feelings. He continues to explain why he believes it is evil to keep women from the pulpit by an explanation of 1 Timothy 2:11-12 which has been a scriptural basis for many in their belief of men only preachers. He also explains that the church being an institution that leaders are also able to be influenced by evil forces as described in Ephesians 6:12 .Campolo shares personal stories that has contributed to his belief in women preaching and teaching. I shared another interpretation of the 1 Timothy passage that explains, in my mind, why Paul was not forbidding women to teach but more so new believers who happened to be women due to the surrounding religious Diana cult and culture. Click to here to download a copy of my former professor's (Kenneth Waters) article that was published in a European theological journal. It's a little on the technical side but worth reading.

C is Cookie and S is for Submission
Campolo points out of the church's reinforcement of society's stratification of the genders. Namely, he points out how Promise Keepers although has made positive contributions to the outside world such as repenting of racist and sexual sin but still upholds the "head of the household" role for men. Interestingly enough although Campolo would say that Promise Keepers has reinforced an old idea of what it means to be manly, an article in Biola Connections magazine called, "The Feminization of the Church" charges that the church and promise keepers are to "girly" for many men. If you want to read the article, you can do so here. We discussed that Religiousness seems to be overgeneralized as "girly" and that certain spiritual concepts end up looking weak such as: compassion, sacrifice, pacifism, and etc. As far as marriage, Campolo seems to be more of an Egalitarian, where he would contend that the marriage is a equal partnership not as some would derive from Ephesians 5:22-24. One person during our study shared that they disagreed with Campolo's view on marriage and so to look at the two ways Christians may view marriage here's an article from Christianity Today. This is interesting when you are dating someone and thinking of marriage. It can be difficult if you as a guy who believes a women should do house stuff and she believes in working a job. Or if you're a women and you believe that your mate should support you and then your husband sees you as lazy.

Feminists vs. Evangelicals and Ying and Yang
Many would believe that feminism in the Evangelical "F" word. Here Campolo talks about how Feminists and Evangelicals need not to be at each other's throats. Although issues such as abortion do keep Feminists and Evangelicals apart, Campolo argues that they have more common than some Evangelicals may recognize. One example that I found, was while listening to KPFK (a progressive non-corporate sponsored radio channel) a women who is considered a feminist, talked about women, marriage, and children She felt that many women have felt trapped into marriage by wedlock or saw marriage as a vehicle for having children. She mentioned that women should be able to make their own choices on career and marriage. Sound like a commercial for abortion? Maybe not, if we provided more resources to young people other than the opposite of an Nike ad (Just don't do it) and made sex a more comfortable subject to talk about than maybe abstinence would seem so difficult. There also seems to be a large push from the "court don't date" crowd for Christians to find a mate and many would approve of early marriage. What do you if you are seventeen and you just want to hang out with the opposite sex? Although I believe abstinence is the best option for Christians, what happens when you have the hormonal teenage couple who have put themselves in a pickle and do not use preventive measures and a baby shows up? Yes it is true that a condom does not cover the heart, but a condom looks a lot better than thought of abortion, the difficulty of adoption, or the challenge of being a parent. Then again condoms don't always work. In any case, Evangelicals should be encouraging of Women defining their relationship and plan' by what God would have them do, which is not always about who one is marry and how many children to have. Although these things are important, it is a woman's dedication to Jesus and her contribution to the kingdom that is far more important than "finding a man." In fact the Apostle Paul writes,"Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry. But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband." 1 Corinthians 7:1-2 Still, being horny is not a good reason to get married.

Lastly, Campolo talks about Yin and Yang and how the church has polar opposites in theology and prayer due to masculine and feminine qualities. He writes about how God/Jesus is whole encompassing both types of qualities.

"I am not advocating what might be called 'the feminist agenda', with any of variant expressions. What I am suggesting here is that Evangelicals abandon the stereotypical differentiations of male and female and find in Christ the declaration of a new humanity that He incarnates for all of us."
-Tony Campolo

Sunday School in your Mouth and the Death of Chapter 3

This Sunday the church had brunch for the adult bible fellowship classes. We were downstairs represented'. All the teachers went around and shared what their classes were covering. I introduced myself as your facilitator and shared a little bit about the book we are reading. Although we did more talking than eating, we are going to finish chapter three, "Do Evangelicals Have an Image Problem" here on-line.

Last time we discussed chapter three we looked at what seems to separate Evangelicals from other groups of people. We talked about who are the "player haters" of Evangelical Christianity. The next section, "Don't make up your mind for all time" was interesting. Campolo talks about the possibility of being wrong. He notes that many would point out that Evangelicals are closed minded. With their being such a strong strand of apologetics and debating in the Evangelical world it would be easy to understand some criticism. A former professor of mine asked if we had ever "made a friend of another faith such as a Muslim for the sake of relationship not just to convert them?" I think this is a valid question. I think that although theological discussion and witnessing is important, these have greater effect in context. According to many Evangelicals, if someone does not accept Christ by the time they graduate from high school chances are they never will. I know in life that I have made relationship for the sole purpose of witnessing but understand how important it is to invest into relationship and leaving the saving part to God. Back to the book, AIDS and homosexuality is mentioned. It has been commonplace for Christians to blame gay folks for events such as 9/11 or Katrina. I agree that humility and admitting one is wrong is important to our faith yet so hard to do sometimes. If one admits to being wrong, it brings them down from a higher place and if "winning" someone over is the idea than they may seem to be counterproductive. Many of us would point out though that admittance of wrong doing shows transparency and keep us from riding a high horse.

I am an Evangelical, This book, and Campolo's goal are the concluding parts of the chapter. In this chapter Campolo seems to move from what could be seem from a moderate standpoint to a more poignant in presenting his personal critiques. As much as this book is a critique of Evangelical culture, these sections are important to recognize and are an integral part of the book. So now, let's here you ya'll have to say!

Do Evangelicals Have an Image Problem? Cont...

So it has been a couple of weeks, and we all have missed each other for one reason or another. I have been out spending time with our new born son. Well, I returned to church today and chit chatted with a few of you. This summer has been awesome and we have had some great discussion. Now that many of you are going back to school and some of you work, this is where this blog's rubber meets the road. The main idea behind this blog is so that we can all keep connected whether physically attending church or not. So since things are starting to get busy, I am excited to see how these will go. That means that this Sunday, September 10 we will be discussing the rest of chapter 3 whether one or no people show up this Sunday. Meanwhile please feel free to post your thoughts/feelings on our group meetings or previous/present chapter. Looking foward to hearing from all of you!

P.S. Free music! You can download some cool folk rock for free. See the last comment posted on our last posting for a bit of info.
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MIA

Hey guys. This last weekend I had something come up at the last minute. We were going to have Jeremy share a something with us (minus me), but no one showed. ? Anywho, we will be reconvening this Sunday the 27th. We will be discussing a few things but will put off chapter three until the following week. For those of you who need to read chapter 3, you will have had plenty of time so no need to read during the sermon. I will be posting this coming week's happenings after Sunday. See you guys soon.